So it's definitely one of the first things on our to-do list here to start a thread on which video file formats people here would care to download.

To my knowledge, there are 5 video codecs that are capable compressing HD video down to a size and quality appropriate for this kind of project:
WMVHD
H.264
Xvid
Divx
Nero

We've obviously gone with WMVHD for the time being, for a number of long, complex reasons which I can get into later, but we're currently experimenting with the other formats.

What video file format should we be using?

-Dominic
______________________________________________
mariposaHD - the world's first HDTV show for the Internet
http://www.mariposahd.tv

I'd say stick with WMVHD for now..
once we all have decoding power for H.264 then switch to that! :)

I would go with XviD because it keeps you out of a lockin with Microsoft
And I can watch XviD on linux (wmvHD is problematic)
I get AV sync issues and audio dropout
The CPU is ~30% (its a dual core 3800+, so 60% of one CPU)

I converted one of the eps to XviD
It looked/sounded great (at a smaller file size, 1500 or so vs 2100)
The sync issues were still there (because it can't decode correctly to begin with)

I would love it if you at least provided one of the resolutions as XviD (so I can watch the show)

-palmem

Interesting. What did you use to convert it? What bitrate did you choose? Does XviD give you the option to do a 2-pass VBR encoding?

-Dominic
______________________________________________
mariposaHD - the world's first HDTV show for the Internet
http://www.mariposaHD.tv

Im running a pretty fast pc not the fastest but fast (3ghz) and WMVHD is in my opinion one of best formats for viewing HD content. I have tried DIVX, and quicktime. The problem with divx is not the image quality but the sound. i have downloaded a number of samples from the divx site and the sound sounds like its running at 128kbs its not good at all. quick time is much better however for some reason HD content in full screen mode using quicktime 7 professional seems to stutter. all the wmvHD content i have viewied has best audio and video quality.

I used mencoder (a linux tool tool) to encode the wmv to avi
http://www.autogk.me.uk/ should be good for windows

Mencoder can do 2pass encoding, or 1pass fixed quant (my favorite, because it uses a different file size for how big the file needs to be)

For better quality audio, go with xvid/ogg, but then you need to put it in an ogg/ogm container, which nothing plays right

All the videos in a certain folder to avi (xvid/mp3):
for x in $( ls ); do
mencoder $x -oac mp3lame -lameopts preset=96 -ovc xvid -xvidencopts fixed_quant=5 -o small/$x
done

Fixed quant is the quality (lower# = higher quality)
preset is the audio quality (avg bit rate, higher# = higher quality)
These settings made a file ~1500mb of the first episode @1080i


As for the reasons that you chose wmv:
Filesize/quality: http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/codecs-main-105-1.htm (doesn't have wmv)
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/codecs-104-1.htm (has wmv, old)
codec availability: xvid is on everything (can do mp4 complient, and iPod can play mpeg4, but not sure if they work together), works great on my palm T|X
playback performance: no idea
encoder availability: xvid is on everything but iPod
encoder price: xvid is free (beer and speech)
encoding speed: xvid is 2x the speed of wmv
ability to use encoder with our NLE: no idea (but if your editor can spit out mpeg2, then encode with an outside program)
ease of codec/player installation: wmv is better on windows, xvid everywhere else
adherence to "standards": xvid can output to "mpeg4 complient", wmv is complient with the wmv standard, which nothing else can encode...

Of course, I like XviD and hate MS...
-palmem

Very interesting. We do appreciate the concise info.

At the moment, when we do start offering other video formats we're clearly leaning toward XviD. The most influential reason is that it is already the dominate format for all those people who are already swapping TV shows and other videos with BitTorrent. Unfortunately, when we did our initial testing, we couldn't actually get the quality/size/playback performance of XviD to equal WMV-HD for HD-resolution video on a PC. I agree it's a great format for standard-def material, but for whatever reason we couldn't get it to work that great with HD. I'm sure your tips above will help us sort it out.

It's a good idea, but at the moment it's definitely doing to remain a second- or third-priority item to offer the HD videos in other formats. We still have too many other technical hurdles to overcome before we get to that one. We're working on getting our iPod format videos available to download directly from Apple's iTunes. And we're still refining our workflow for the WMV-HD format videos. We had enormous problems trying to get episode 02 encoded so we're still working on mastering that route before we start venturing into additional formats.

-Dominic
______________________________________________
mariposaHD - the world's first HDTV show for the Internet
http://www.mariposaHD.tv

I dont really have a prolbem with WMVHD, but I would lookinto H.264 since it is one of the standards being used for both Blu-ray and HDDVD. This might allow for future compatibility with hardware players and other devices.

Just my two cents, and since you already have a working solution the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind. Well keep up the good work, i'll be looking forward to episode two in whatever format it is released in.

I was a little offended when I followed "The Easy 1-2-3 Guide To Getting Free HDTV" link and it immediately assumed I ran Windows XP. Your content certainly isn't free to "Everyone" unless you distribute it in an open format that plays on all modern operating systems. With a theme of freedom, the last thing you should do is force ties to Microsoft. Are you compensated to use their tools or promote their format? I find it highly suspicious that your site omits the details on editing (all HD content I've seen so far has been edited with Apple's Final Cut Pro HD on Macs - NBC used FCP for all HD in the Olympics even 4 years ago). It might also be useful to post what you've tried encoding with. Since implementations and parameters vary, there's more to quality than the choice of codec.

I live in a large apartment complex with free broadband included. But anyone causing trouble on the net with viruses or malware here gets cut off. Virtually all of us using Windows got cut off in the first month after moving in (myself included). Windows users here have all switched to Ubuntu Linux (free by mail or download) or gotten Macs. Neither of which supports what you're calling WMVHD (which I believe is really called WMV3). I wouldn't want a car that only ran on Microsoft gasoline, please don't give us Microsoft-only video.

I believe that you'd be able to reach all platforms well with Xvid. H.264 looks even better to me, and is also open, but it does seem to be slightly more demanding of playback hardware. The open-source player VLC (VideoLAN Client) works well on all platforms, although it is in the earlier stages of supporting h.264. Please show you support for freedom and open standards by using a codec that works with VLC.

Some time ago I encountered a bug on the MTV website and contacted support. Their site had a "best viewed with Internet Explorer" logo which I commented on. The support person admitted they he didn't like or recommend Explorer either, that the logo was there because they were paid to have it there. I think it's great of your site highlights tools such as the cameras you use (or even the clothing on the women?), but please don't sell out to Microsoft. Thank You.

+1 on everything Sergio said.

Don't use WMV. It's proprietary and doesn't play on all platforms.

Although your stuff is creative commons licenced, which is cool, you used a "No Derivative Works" license, which means nobody can re-encode and distribute in another format (like DivX).

WMV all the way if others wanna convert and degrade that is fine but I want it RAW and UNJACKED!

If you going to make HDTV why compress it? WHY????

I was happy when I watched these episodes. ONE cause they use WMV and TWO cause they were almost true HD not HD beat to crap like you download elsewhere on the internet.

Get NVIDIA, and NVIDIA pure dvd decoder and and watch what hdtv is supposed to be.

I really suggest some open source format. I'd like to be able to play it on my Linux PC (AMD Athlon 64 3000+ running Debian AMD64 3.1).

Just found your site. Downloading the 2 episodes now. WMVHD should do fine.

But i kinda understand the ones running on other platforms.

You could make it in MPEG-4 AVC (aka H.264). Most new modern computer shouldnt have any problems playing of that. That should work on most platforms i think.

Best place for codec info and stuff: http://forum.doom9.org/

Just watched you show. Nice show. Excelent quality as it is :)

Sergio, on another note i can't believe that North Shore got cancelled!!! what a great show in HDTV! beautiful landscapes and people in hdtv with all that drama i thought for sure it'd catch on. Frankie sure would have gotten alot of play had that show kept going and i can only imagine the ladies he meets in real life. Can you believe that imdb.com doesn't even have his pic or number of episodes listed correctly?

Some articles about codecs for HD-resolutions claim that DivX and Xvid have problems with resolutions greater than 720p especially 1080p, but i've never tested it.
On my Inspiron 8600 with 1,7Ghz Pentium M and ATi 6800 WMVHD plays fine. Not only mariposa but also WMVHD movies like Tomb Raider and Coral reef Adventure.
H.264 video from german HD-television hardly plays. Only about 10fps.

I also don't like WMV because it doesn't work anywhere but Windows. Shows like this should not be in propriatery and closed formats like this for which you have to pay to be able to decode and watch them,

I hope you change to some completely/more open format or at least some format that is well supported on all platforms including Linux, BSD, Solaris, Mac OS and others. XviD is my favourite. Have you also checked out the completely free formats like Ogg Theora?

--
Live long and prosper!

Read "MPEG 2 version?" in forum, I wrote some information about H.264(x264)...

Please do not use wmv container or codecs. People can't properly watch this on a free as in speech software machine (a growing platform in the best interest of the enduser). Xvid / h264 / Theora are delivery codecs that have atleast open decoders available.

Xvid probably is the most widely used by the movie (warez) community, and probably has the best 'licence/technical suitability/deployment' ratio.

If you looked to use a more open codec, such as Divx, you would open up all the MythTV (linux PVR) users to watching MythTV.

I can watch 720p on my Mythbox for example in Divx, but not in WMVHD, as its just too ineffecient and I don't have the horsepower, don't worry I still watch mariposaHD - just on my iPod...

(and for all those with 3Ghz HTPC's, how do you cope with the noise of cooling it all!)

P.

How about .TS files? Encode at or below 20Mbps and it should stream fine on most High def media players.

this site explain very well why use (mpeg4 avc)
but not (Windows Media 9, Flash, or any other CODEC)
http://www.technologyevangelist.com/2006/03/shooting_in_hd_and_d_1.html

My vote is for nonproprietary video codecs, first H.264 followed by Ogg/Theora if possible.
And for the audio AAC/MP4audio or Ogg Vorbis .
it seems like most of the Vidcasts (video podcasts) I download are using H.264 video codec.

If you're having problems with other video formats you could try asking for tips/help from Alex Lindsay or somebody else from the Pixel Corps. see http://www.pixelcorps.com
He and his team help edit and encode a regular TWiT Vidcast named MacBreak that is available in 1080P and other resolutions. see http://www.twit.tv/mb

If you're still having problems that is.. Have you gotten encoding in H.264 already working well? If not my suggestion is to ask Alex.

Another voice for H.264/AVC. It was made especially for the content you offer AND is supported by the companies building HD Hardware. Theora is not. So if you go for a Mac or the new AppleTV, you are native. Every WinUser can download Quicktime for free. And there is an implementation in VLC, but it could be that its only x264.

I vote for H.264. I have a reasonably fast machine - Athlon xp 3200, 1024 MB PC-3200 RAM, ATI Radeon 9700 Pro - that I would like to continue to use to play HD content. I experience stuttering/lost frames with most WMVHD 720P files using any application - VideoLAN, Windows Media Player, Media Player Classic - and their respective decoders. On the other hand, I am able to play both 720P and 1080P H.264 encoded content flawlessly (no dropped frames) using Media Player Classic and CoreAVC decoder. AFAIK, there is no WMV decoder that matches the performance of CoreAVC for H.264. Also many recent graphics cards are offering hardware acceleration for H.264; I don't think they are offering this for WMV. Please consider switching over to H.264. Consider using x264 as the encoder.

For optimal compatibility and quality I'd suggest using the following:

1080p - .mp4 with H.264 (Level 4.1) and AAC sound (can be played back on PS3 & soon Xbox360)
720p - ideally same as above OR _maybe_ .avi with xvid + mp3 sound for those with slower computers
480p - .mp4 with H.264 (Level 3.0) and AAC sound (this can be played back on Sony PSP 3.30) and is also good for those with slower computers

I would be willing to do the compression for you guys if you need the help. I second the "1080p - .mp4 with H.264 (Level 4.1) and AAC sound (can be played back on PS3 & soon Xbox360)"

James

I